Curse

S H I N O B I · Jul 15, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Just for the record, I'm not saying that Assassins should tank.

I had posted on the assassin build directory submission forum regarding a skill setup that can "generally" endure attacks. The generalization is based on the its ability to survive/kill all the NPC types in Nameless Isle, depending on what sequence you use its skill setup. This build is not meant to tank... Rather, it's a setup that can be confident within prolonged battles, provided that it is not the target of ALL the mobs...

copy/pasted from this thread: http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...3008187&page=2

Profession: Assassin/Warrior
Name: Shinobi Shield
Type: PvE - tested. PvP - untested (may require slight alteration)
Category: Annihilation/Survival

Attributes:

Dagger Mastery: 12+1
Shadow Arts 8+1
Critical Strikes: 10+3+1(mask)

Skills Set:

Palm Strike {E}
Horns of the Ox
Falling Spider
Twisting Fangs
Wild Blow
Critical Defenses
Critical Eye (Rez Sig)
Shadow Refuge (Rez Sig)

Summary: What this build lacks in mobility, it gains in staying power. This build has its focus on survival, which is based on constant 72% blocking goodness from a combination of Critical Defenses and spamming Wild Blow everytime it recharges. Preferably used against lone targets, your Offense is based on a successful chain of an unblockable touch skill combined with dual attacks, (one with a bonus knock down), and condition stacking (poison, bleeding, and deep wound). Palm Strike is regarded as an offhand attack, so once it is used, you can automatically use a dual attack. After using Palm Strike on an opponent, you have a choice of using (for maximum dmg/condition stacking) Horns/Falling/Twisting in sequence, or just use Twisting Fangs in case your foe is adjacent to his allies. And with only a 10 sec recharge from Palm Strike, the sequence can be repeated quickly. A basic battle using this build goes like this:

-select victim
-cast crit def and crit eye before attacking
-attack using the sequence Palm Strike/Horns/Falling/Twisting
-use Wild blow everytime it recharges to ensure constant Critical Def enchantment
-spam crit eye on every recharge (33 secs at 14 Critical Strikes, well past over the 30 sec recharge)
-use Shadow Ref when needed (+8 regen w/ 9 Shadow Arts and +56 hp when attacking)

Notes & Concerns: This build is kinda cool, as it can beat every single Master NPC in nameless Isle (Master of Hexes/Hammers/Axes/Lightning/Survival/Energy Denial/Healing/Enchantment) without any modification of the skill set. Pretty neat IMO... However, this build's worst enemies are Enchantment Removals and Blinding skills, which removes Critical Defenses and renders Wild Blow useless (respectively). This is evident with the difficulty of beating the Master of Lightning NPC, since it spams Blinding Flash constantly. However, if the Master of Lightning fails to cast blinding flash early in the battle, he will be dead very very quickly. Enchantment removals can be avoided by casting Shadow Refuge as a dummy enchant after casting Crit Def, so that only the Shadow Refuge gets taken off, keeping Crit Def on, and leaving the opponent with a wasted Enchant removal skill.

Also worth noting is that it will help GREATLY if you had a dagger that has a a 20% enchant bonus on it, which will help GUARANTEE your 72% constant blocking Crit Def will stay up when used in conjunction with Wild Blow (provided you are not blinded/enchant shattered/etc..) Also it is recommended that the dagger in use also has a +15% dmg when enchanted, or when hp is above 50%. Add a Zealous attribute on the dagger and you'll be all set...

Additional Notes: Try this build on the NPC's at The Isle Of The Nameless for extra fun...
-Master of Healing and Master of Enchantments can take quite a beating so defeating them will take a bit longer than the others... Eventually they will go down though. ~.^

-Master of Lightning is a bit on the hard side. If he casts Blinding Flash early on you, just retreat. If you manage to land the combo before he casts Blinding Flash again, he's toast.

-Master of Energy Denial is easy as long as you initiate the attack while he's busy casting Quickening Zephyr. Land Palm Strike and Twisting Fangs, then just attack away... He'll go down eventually.

-Master of Axes has shatter enchantment so just cast Shadow Ref first to make him waste the skill, then cast Crit Def and slash away.

-Master of Hammers/Hexes/Survival - easy win ^.^

HAVE FUN!

Shuuda · Jul 15, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

A/Me 16 in shadow arts and a 15 in dagger masterey

arcane echo
shadow form [E]
shadow ref
golden lotus
golden phoenix
horns of the Ox
Falling spider
Recall (cast it on a monk)

this will allow u not only to stay in combat for good while, but deal good damage, u don't need much HP cause shadow form is good defence Vs all attacks and spells.

Bloodied Blade · Jul 16, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

@TadaceAce-

1.) There wasn't really any hard armor calculation, just field testing for the deaths, so explain the "mathmatically wrong" part.
2.) Unfortunately the war had +vs. physical armor and that could not be avoided, had I tested a week earlier there would have been no AL bonus.
3.) I do mention if I was attacking, you missed that line apparently.
4.) You also appear to have missed the part about me trying to get the warrior's healing close to the assassin's healing without going /A.

@Spura, show me where I said that you couldn't design an assassin build specifically to tank? I specifically say that builds CAN be designed to tank, but it's not advised.

@Saider maul, I apologize for my shortsightedness on the hit-and-run, I was under the assumption that the elite skill being used for a hit-and-run would be AoD, which would effectively manage most situations. I wont go into the ego argument and we will allow hypocrisy to do its job as it does every day anyway. There are other ways to balance an assassin, they have been posted. Anyway, as for the "void" in teleporting in and out, I guess you misinterpreted me a bit. While the damage may not be as admirable as other classes, I was under the assumption that we were making a comparison of damage between a 'sin that remains in melee and one that uses hit-and-run tactics, where the "void" of the skill recharges remains regardless.

Saider maul · Jul 16, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

i still consider 3-4 targets along the outer edge of the battle hit and run.
I may not hit 1 target but i stay and kill it then as a sin should go for the next caster.

AoD is nice but like all teleport skills it takes you agro radius, leaving you in casting distance,archer distance,and still without an evade,block,or decent self heal.

the ego comment is derived from constant post against builds without the person spending just 1 of the multitude of skill points and the 5-20 minutes it takes to go try it out.

again i do not say its the best build but it allows a sin to use a standard combo with the capability to stay and finish the job.
My build has mobility, decent damage and durability. I only lack excape and a res.lol :P

Turalisj · Jul 17, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Let's just remember that sins are a relativly new class, where as the 6 other classes have been around for a good amount of time.
I think we can expect sin skills to either get nerfed (not that liekly, but if many people complain than it might happen) or boosted (more than likely, as skills are already being boosted)

Hollerith · Jul 18, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

You're providing anecdotal evidence. Saying "about 30" is not something you can base arguments on when you're trying to persuade with data. You never responded to my response about the relationship between armor and damage taken. Using those numbers, your numbers are actually mathematically wrong.

You used +physical armor for the W, but didn't use +15def for the A. Big mistake when drawing comparisons.

TadaceAce assumed you were using +15def armor, because that would provide a better comparison. You weren't, so the question whether or not you were attacking is irrelevant.

If you wanted to do a proper experiment, you'd have both A and W use the same healing skills. You know, like have both have 9 in Shadow Arts and use shadow refuge every 10 seconds or something.

Just to see for myself, and to defend the name of science, I brought my W and A outside the marketplace and timed how fast I can die. The W lasted between 14 - 21 seconds, and the A lasted 9 - 15. However we can't really say much about my numbers because my W had 30 more hp than my A, so the numbers are tilted towards the W's favor. This is what we do in an experiment: we list all variables.

W ---> with plate, 1peice Knights, maj Vigor, sup Absorb, Victo's Shield. Just stood there taking hits. Out of 5 trials, lasted between 14 and 21 seconds.

A ---> with full +15 while attacking, +30hp daggers. Stood there while attacking and just took hits. Out of five trials, lasted between 9 and 15 seconds.

Forget the different healing spells. Those are called intervening variables and they're unwanted.

My numbers make much more sense to me. They're very in line with the equation I mentioned earlier, except I didn't factor in the 16def Shield in my numbers.

So using the median of my numbers (17.5secs vs. 12secs), I show an Assassin with heavy def armor takes a bit less than 70% more damage than a W with plate and a peice of Knights.

krek · Aug 31, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

My two cents:

Why should DOT or down time or kill rates even be important. Monks generally have abysmal DOT and kill rates, nothing can out down-time a fire ele, that does not stop people from playing them, and an assassin armor is beats all except ranger and warrior. Just because assassin is largely melee is no reason to compare it to a tank, or run it as one... I mean rangers have been known to tank in a pinch, doesn't mean it is something you would want to build a ranger skill bar around (not that you couldn't). Besides, just because you are not in the middle of the tank action or even actively dealing damage does not mean you are not providing a valuable service, the most effective assassin I ever played with spent most of his time bodyguarding the monks, let me tell you, no one messed with our monks that game, occassionally he would disapear, a foe would die, and the bodyguard was back.

The assassin strength is not damage, despite the ability to do massive amounts of it under the proper circumstances. An assassin's strength is in it's ability to easily get in and out of mobs/backline, no other class can do what the assassin can in this area. Locate the foe that is causing the most difficulties and eliminate it, or at the very least seriously mess with that foe's mojo, thus allowing the rest of your team to do what it does even more effectively. I mean the name kind of says it all no? Assassin! Assassins are sneaky, seldom seen but very deadly, "hello, who are y... oh I'm dead, who was that masked man?" You play in teams for a reason. Anyone who argues that assassins can tank is only saying one thing to me, that they don't know how to play as a functioning part of a team.

Shadow refuge is not a general use heal skill as such, it is best used to give you the extra needed seconds to eliminate that pesky mesmer or monk before you are forced to withdraw.

IMO assassins should be played more like a ranger than a warrior, where you are the arrow, and the arrow is a smart missile, a smart heat-seeking missile. When I play my monk it gives me great ease of mind when I see the little recall icon in the corner of my screen.

Thus concludes my two cents.

sabretalon · Aug 31, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Personally, I now run my Sin as a bodyguard! I protect the teams monk, I take out the softer targets in close range so I don't leave my monk open!

If monk is being attacked by a warrior, I will make a call to the team.

I highlight my calls, a double call on a target means the team should help out, as the monk and I can not take them on!

I set up in a way to be able to take out most in a 1-1 situation, except warriors and monks! A good monk should be able to survive a Sin attack until help comes! Warriors soak up too much damage and hit hard.

Staying by your monk, you tend to find they are targeted by Sins fairly quickly, so your first job should be fighting of Sins. Most Sin's do not notice you as they are focused on the monk, so you should be able to take them down quickly!

Next, if your warriors have done their job, they should have engaged their warriors! Your rangers should then offer fire support, to either distract their monks, to keep them from healing their warriors or to help kill their warriors. Casters should also be used to distract or spike damage.

The thing about being a good Sin is not about wading in an tanking, it is about being part of the team! If you are in a good team, you should assign each other roles or even set up smaller teams within the main team!

So on a 8 man team you may have 2 warriors, a necro, a monk, a sin, 2 rangers and a mes as an example. As a sin I would attach myself to the monk, necro and 1 ranger. The warriors would then take the rest. We would not split up! It is just that if I call once then my team should be looking at where I'm going. If I call twice then the whole group come in for support, when possible. The warriors do the same, so a single call is for their team to attack and double is for all of us.

A lot of people think of assassins, like in the films! They work alone and survive by themselves. In GW, this will not work, the healing you have should help you to get back to be healed, but not to self heal! Your not a 1 man/woman army, think that way and you are waiting for someone to rez you!

Yes you can tank to a certain degree, I have had to in the past! But you should not be trying to do that as a rule, if you do, then you may start to lose the support of your monk if they have to rez you too often!

If the team spots a particular enemy who is making it difficult for them, then I get a "Sin, take out the...." call. The necro and ranger cover the monk, until I get back.

It is all about the team, it is not about you. A good Sin is part of a succesful team, a bad Sin is usually, laid face down asking to be rezzed!

This is not to say what you have written is incorrect, as I have mentioned I do tank when in need.

I like my Sin more than any of my other characters, I've spent more time on her and still would choose her for any trips our guild go on! I think I have proven it to my guild that a Sin is a valuable team member, and is versitile enough mix it up a little.

Other tactics, step in lay down conditions on warriors to cause bleeding, which then allows your warriors to cause deep wound and spike dammage. Frustrate their warriors, step in hit them until they focus on you, step out! If they are not a good warrior, they will chase you! While they are chasing you down they are causing no damage to your team! The flexability of your Sin allows you to set up for most situations, you just need to decide what you are setting up for. If you try being generalised then you are not effective enough.

Silver_Fang · Aug 31, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollerith

W ---> with plate, 1peice Knights, maj Vigor, sup Absorb, Victo's Shield. Just stood there taking hits. Out of 5 trials, lasted between 14 and 21 seconds.

People still use 1 peice of Knight armor nowaday?

BTW, a Warrior have many ways to + defense. and your method of testing is wrong, doing nothing ONLY shows that your armor is better, the real survivibility is from the skill they use instead of the armor they use.

The field test is bad as well as using the wrong armor.